employee engagement dialogue

Employee Engagement Dialogue with Jennifer Schulte from Mars, Inc.

November 7, 2012 by David Zinger Leave a Comment

Jennifer Schulte offers her wisdom and experience surrounding employee engagement in large organizations. This a a must watch recording if you are directly involved in a large organization’s employee engagement efforts.

Part of the dialogue: And then we came to a point where there was a call to action, you’re not doing your job as a business partner in HR if you’re not making sure engagement is on the agenda for your clients, and your managers, and the folks in your group, so we very much kind of had to make that point, and since that time it’s amazing to me what some of our HR folks have done just in terms of day-to-day coaching, more formal training, just making sure that there’s an actual metric on people’s objectives, and key metrics, and agendas, it’s out there. So, I think HR can very much be the nudge to the business about how important this is and just we can’t let our foot off the gas.

Jennifer Schulte Dialogue on Engagement from David Zinger on Vimeo.

David Zinger: Hi, my name is David Zinger and I want to welcome you to an employee engagement dialogue. It’s my privilege to have Jen Schulte from Mars with us today, and obviously if you look at the first slide, we’re not talking about the Mars rover or whatever; we’re talking about the fabulous, I love M&M’s, the fabulous company that makes so many treats that I just love and adore. Welcome to the dialogue, Jan. [0:28]

Jennifer Schulte: All right, thank you very much. I always introduce myself and I say I’m from Mars and not the planet, so I appreciate the distinction; you’re absolutely right. [0:36]

David Zinger: Well, on the next slide not only do we have a little bit of your background, but we have some of the brands too, and it makes my mouth water just to look at those brands. You in your background were working with Mars as kind of the global engagement director and you’ve changed, and you have a background in finance, but perhaps you could tell us just a little bit about your background? [0:58]

Jennifer Schulte: Sure, sure, and it has changed over time. It’s a bit of a zigzag career path but it’s been really exciting for me. So, I joined Mars about… It was the fourth company that I worked for in my career; prior to that I had worked for an insurance company, a bank, an actual banking firm, and a telecom. So, I joined Mars CPG experience in the finance department and what excited me right away was just the opportunity to work in teams with great people. So, Mars was very much a team environment, it’s very collaborative; we actually have physically an open office environment, so it literally means there are no offices, no doors. We have a few conference rooms for confidential discussions that need to take place and meetings, but otherwise everyone up through to our CEO just has a desk out in the open. So, I found that very environment very exciting and so that led me to looking into HR as a potential career path. I went into HR in a sort of training and development environment; I started to train on line manager skills since I had managed teams of people and that’s something I was familiar with, and then that kind of just over time ended up leading me to engagement, so we started working with the Gallup organization in 2003-2004 at Mars, so it was really exciting for me to be able to have a role in that process and that’s been the longest tenure in Mars is the job that I had on engagement which was really exciting, and then that led me into more traditional kind of HR leadership roles, so really exciting career path that I’ve had, very probably unconventional. I really have, you know, I’m not an HR person by trade, but I’m a businessperson with, you know, a love for people, and engagement, and good leadership, so I think that serves me well in my current job. [2:49]

David Zinger: What a fantastic blend, because it really… I mean sometimes people mistake engagement as either a flavor of the month and you’ve been at it obviously for 10 years at Mars, and sometimes people see it as that little extra, like a barbeque or a treat that we give employees, but you have the sense of finance, you’re working around operations and HR, so it gives you a fairly unique perspective on engagement. [3:15]

Jennifer Schulte: It definitely does, I mean I think… You know, so I’m actually talking to you, I’m sitting at one of our factories inGeorgia where they make the delicious and wonderful Combos, and Kudos, andMarathon brands you see on the slide. You know, for me it’s, you know, really walking around, talking to folks, seeing what they’re doing, and just seeing the passion, and the energy, and the commitment they have about their job, about our brand, about the team they work in, about the manager they work for; I mean for me that’s where it all comes together. So, I love the experience of engagement and it is very much something at Mars that is here to stay as a culture element for us and something we measure and take very seriously. [3:55]

David Zinger: You know one of the things that struck me in reading some background about you, and I mean Gallup obviously has been a client of yours, but you have also been interviewed by them and they talked about the process you went through with managers around engagement, and it sounded to me like at the start perhaps there was a look at how do we get this going and then really kind of turning it around and looking at what the good managers were doing and what they could teach the other managers; it sounds like it really fits with the Mars culture. [4:25]

Jennifer Schulte: Oh, it does. So, when I first got into the role in engagement my focus was very much about training, and so at the time we had done the Gallup survey a couple of years, you know, we were kind of getting into the routine of it, and what we did every year, and we survey every single associate at every level, you know, across our business, so everyone’s included, and what we were doing every year was we were doing something that was like a, you know, a mandatory training, every manager had to go, it was a half a day sort of program, and it was, you know, teaching them about how to interpret the survey, how to sit down and prepare for a session with your team, how do you create an action plan; it was very tactical stuff. When I came into the role what I found was, first I started looking at the data and really looking for where do we have pockets of high engagement, you know, what’s going on, is it site-wide, is it country, you know, is it function, you know, kind of where are the seams, and what I actually found was it was very manager-specific. So, I started, you know, actually interviewing and talking to some of the managers that had high engagement where it could be at a site where the actual site was very low and other managers at the site also had very low scores, one manager would be really high.

So, the interesting thing when I started surveying and talking to those folks and interviewing them was they didn’t really recognize what they were doing. So, you know they weren’t naturally teaching their peers, because they didn’t realize what they were doing had a special impact really. So, you know one of the things early on was bringing to light it was the way they were approaching, the way they communicate, the way they would even include and empower their team in making decisions that was causing the engagement to be high, and you know, picking up on those things and then using that as a platform to help teach, but also recognizing that everybody didn’t need to be taught the same thing, so starting to focus on, you know, who are the audiences, who are the managers who are new to managing people who do need that more tactical understanding, who are the managers who have been here a long time and they probably need something different? So, starting to really customize, consider the audience, and then also things, you know, from one manager where it’s working really well to a manager somewhere else with a similar situation and need that can really learn and benefit from that, so that was the approach that we took. [6:44]

David Zinger: So, really in the vernacular of today like almost a positive deviancy study of those people who are doing well, but with some customization not saying that gee, we need to replicate that everywhere; there’s some individual differences, and company differences, and people differences, so it sounds it was in my terms more invitational than imposition; it wasn’t that you’re going to have to do these 10 things, it’s let’s talk to some people who are doing things and let’s see what fits and makes sense for you? [7:15]

Jennifer Schulte: That’s exactly right. Yeah, you’re right, the positive deviance was the approach, and yeah just thinking about, you know, who’s on the receiving end of this stuff and what do they really need, is it all the same? I mean obviously the conclusion that I had was that it wasn’t all the same and then making sure that we were meeting the need they had versus, you know, kind of pushing one thing at them that was a different agenda. [7:35]

David Zinger: And so you’ve been… You’ve been on this path for a while and, you know, almost 10 years with Mars has been on the path and you’ve been very directly involved on the path for quite a few years and then look at it more operationally. Many people are just kind of catching on to engagement, many are still just looking at is there a business case, and obviously the evidence suggests there’s a strong, strong business case. Any kind of just general suggestions for people who are in maybe HR that are just being tasked with looking after engagement for their organization? I know there was a couple already in what you said, but I’m wondering about additionally. [8:14]

Jennifer Schulte: Oh sure, definitely. I mean I would actually get asked that question a lot when I was in that role. It was unusual for an organization to even have somebody, you know, in their title looking after engagement; usually it’s a part of somebody’s job and they’ve got a very big job in addition to it. I think, you know, one of the things that I had on my side was real beliefs that this is important from the top of our organization, so our CEO himself when he kind of came into that role it was right around 2005-2006. He took this very seriously within his own team, his team still does; I mean they talk about engagement every time they meet, they have pretty in-depth conversations about actions that they need to take, he follows up with everybody one-on-one as well, you know, he lives and breathes and believes that this is important and that this is one of the drivers of business results for him, so that I think made my job a little bit easier than some of the HR folks that are having to convince senior leaders that this is important. So, you know I have a bit of a different take, but my advice is always, you know, find that person; there’s somebody in your, you know, whether it’s the C Suite or, you know, kind of the next level down, your executive vice president group, somebody believes this is important and they’re a natural believer of it, you know, grab them and get them to help cheerlead the effort and talk about how important it is and why it’s important to them, the results that they’ve seen it provide. I mean I think when it comes from outside of HR it’s even more powerful, so kind of being behind somebody who can be the voice of it in the organization is really important. [9:58]

David Zinger: So the people understand that there’s a finance element to this, there’s a productivity element to it, and that it’s not just another HR initiative that doesn’t seem to tie in to what the business goals are? [10:11]

Jennifer Schulte: Exactly. I mean I think actually starting from the business goals and then saying this is how engagement will help us is an even better positioning, and it’s something that we had to learn. So, to be honest, in the early days, you know we started to measure engagement and then it became about, you know, getting a higher engagement score so we have higher engagement; it was kind of a mean to its own end. So, one of the things that I did work on was looking at if we’re doing our business processes in the right way we should get engagement as an outcome; we shouldn’t have to just drive for engagement for the sake of engagement, so that’s something that we did over time as well and I still feel like I work on that a little bit all the time. [10:53]

David Zinger: So, it’s a bit of almost two measures is you want to see the productivity or profitability of a plant, but you can also measure the engagement, and the two would frequently go together, but you also don’t want just engagement score for the engagement score. [11:13]

Jennifer Schulte: Exactly. So, if I think about, I mean something, you know, as recently as this week that I’ve been talking with folks about here in the business and we’ve got a couple of goals around safety, productivity, and waste, and reducing waste at the site, and you know so I was saying how are you engaging your associates in that waste reduction, you know, are we challenging people, are we asking them for ideas, is there a reward mechanism we can use when somebody has an idea we put in place? I mean it sounds so simple, but you know instead of telling everybody we need to reduce waste, it’s an invitation; like you said, it’s how you approach it that gives you engagement as well as the result that you’re looking for. [11:49]

David Zinger: And it’s a little richer then too, Jen, isn’t it, because it’s not so much… I think sometimes we run into trouble attaching the word engagement to employee, because it just seems to be the role, but in that context you’re attaching engagement to reduction of waste, or safety, or something else and it becomes more specific and maybe even a little bit easier to manage as a manager. [12:11]

Jennifer Schulte: Exactly, exactly, yeah, because I mean we’re always talking with our associates about, you know, the goals, and the metrics, and the things we need to achieve, and we’re driving really hard, and you know why not use that as… Again, you know it’s almost like a language thing; if you can invite people in it, it becomes an engagement thing, rather than doing all of that and then oh by the way, we have to do engagement too. I mean for me that just doesn’t work as well. [12:38]

David Zinger: Yeah, people’s plates are so full of engagement it feels like it’s being heaped upon them and it’s quite disengaging almost isn’t it? [12:47]

Jennifer Schulte: Exactly. So, I also have a really… Well, it wasn’t funny in the moment; it actually made me kind of sad, but I had somebody stop me a few weeks ago at one of our sites and they were talking about the engagement survey. It just happens that right now our survey is out, and it’s in the field, and people are taking it, and somebody kind of jokingly said well, you know I took my survey and I just put all high marks, I gave it all five’s, because then I don’t have to go to the meeting and bother with the action plan and all this stuff, and I said well, that’s an interesting approach, but you know, I’m like so you don’t get anything out of, you know, when you come together as a team and you talk about the things you actually really need to work on? I mean, you know, wouldn’t you miss something if you didn’t have that at all? And of course it was, you know, yes we actually have come a long way and we’ve been working on some meaningful things, and so I’m like be careful, be careful you’re not, you know, kind of winking at the survey if it really does provide a value that you’re taking it seriously and you’re being honest. So, but it can very quickly go the other direction, you’re right. [13:51]

David Zinger: And it’s such a dynamic process; it’s not like you finally you do a few things and you’ve got engagement, I mean it’s a dynamic process that’s changing constantly for individuals, individual plants and people within it. [14:04]

Jennifer Schulte: Oh, very much so, and you know one person in a team changes the dynamic of the team. So, just thinking about, you know, the things we were working on in our engagement plan as a team, and then three people have moved onto other roles and we’ve got three new people in, it’s a whole different, you know, the action plan is probably very different, and if you don’t stop to check and tune in, then you’ve missed an opportunity, so… [14:28]

David Zinger: I was a little reticent; I said I’d ask you the question and I got so interested in your experiences and what you had to offer I didn’t ask you directly. What is engaging you the most in your work right now? [14:42]

Jennifer Schulte: For me it’s definitely being involved in our business day-to-day and just, you know, like I’ve been describing a couple quick conversations that I’ve had in passing, but you know when I get to ask people about their role and, you know, what’s meaningful to them and just hearing the passion in their voices even when they’re mad about something, you know, they’re really passionately mad about it, and they are so committed to, you know, trying to do the best job, everybody’s really passionate about our brands at Mars, that’s a big thing, you know, we make Snicker’s bars, so we feel like we’re giving the world something that makes everybody smile and feel good. So, just, you know, feeling that passion from the people that I work with and seeing it from, you know, like our factory floor to our finance team to the sales guys out in the field talking to customers; I mean there’s just such an energy that for me to be involved in that it’s extremely engaging personally. [15:40]

David Zinger: All right. You make wonderful products at Mars. We’re driving across the Canadian Prairies about 1,400 miles starting tonight to go to Anisa’s wedding, and one of the bags that I have is a huge bag of M&M’s, and… [15:56]

Jennifer Schulte: Oh, glad to hear that. [15:57]

David Zinger: It’s just a nice little treat and oh, they’re just small, but it’s amazing how that bag seems to be gone by the time we get back. [16:04]

Jennifer Schulte: I know, that’s the trick of it, but yeah… Well, we certainly eat lots of it in the business as well; it’s yummy, we love it too. [16:12]

David Zinger: You’ve been involved with the Employee Engagement Network; you go back quite a long time and you were one of the major contributors to our Top 10’s of Employee Engagement. The list I have on the next slide is just five of your items and then five more. I don’t think we need to go through them all, Jen, because after this I can tell people where to get that and they can just download it; it’s just a PDF and it opens right away. I’m wondering on that first five is there one that stands out for you that you’d like to just elaborate a little on? [16:44]

Jennifer Schulte: Sure. I mean actually there are two that for me go together. So, I’ve kind of alluded to a couple of them already, but the two that jump out from the page for me are energizing HR and holding managers accountable. So, you know I think if I look back on things that I would do differently from when Mars started in this process, one of the things we did early on was we made it very much about, you know, the manager and the team and HR really stayed out of it, you know, we tried so hard not to make this HR pushing something at everybody that we removed ourselves too much. [17:19]

David Zinger: OK. [17:19]

Jennifer Schulte: And then we came to a point where there was a call to action, you know, you’re not doing your job as a business partner in HR if you’re not making sure engagement is on the agenda for your clients, and your managers, and the folks in your group, so we very much kind of had to make that point, and since that time it’s amazing to me what some of our HR folks have done just in terms of, you know, day-to-day coaching, more formal training, just making sure that there’s an actual metric on people’s objectives, and you know, key metrics, and agendas, it’s out there. So, I think HR can very much be the, you know, it’s almost kind of like the nudge to the business about how important this is and just we can’t let our foot off the gas, so that’s one. And the other one on manager accountability is interesting. So, again it was kind of, you know, we trained the managers, they would go into the rooms, talk to their teams, the action plan was formed, and then it was kind of everybody else’s job to do all the stuff, and the manager felt like there, I’ve done my engagement job, and what we learned over time was, you know, hey, engagement actually happens every moment every day, so if you run into somebody and in 30 seconds you can impact their engagement for that day either positively or negatively. So, just, you know, really turning it on its ear that it’s every manager interaction and, you know, like I was talking a moment ago, it’s, you know, engagement being the enabler to the things you’re trying to deliver. So, if a manager delivers all their functional and technical things, but their engagement is really, really bad and they’ve left, you know, kind of dead bodies everywhere, I mean to us that just is not acceptable; it’s part of your performance, it’s something that you’re expected to do. So, just, you know, kind of changing that frame around what we meant by accountability. It’s not accountable for the survey and the data; it’s accountable for the behavior and the ongoing work. [19:13]

David Zinger: And that makes work at Mars sustainable, because without that engagement you could get results for a quarter or something, but it’s not sustainable. [19:22]

Jennifer Schulte: Exactly, yeah, or like you’ve checked the box and you’ve done it, but then what if somebody has an issue or a question and it’s not survey time? You know, you can’t just it’s like oh wait for the survey and tell me then, you know, it has to be something that’s ongoing. [19:35]

David Zinger: So, from your own perspective, and I’ve got the other five points and people can read the document, but from your own perspective, what do you celebrate the most about what you’ve been able to accomplish around engagement at Mars? [19:47]

Jennifer Schulte: Oh, I see so much celebration go on around individual managers and teams, and so one of the interesting things is usually when we celebrate a manager who has a great engagement result, the first thing they do is say it’s not me it’s the team, so you know like our best managers are that kind of servant leader where they attribute their success to the team that works for them and with them, so I always find that amazing and inspiring, you know, anytime we have a manager who’s done something really incredible; the way they have communicated with their team, the way they have empowered their team, you know, the manager always kind of throws the recognition back to the team and everybody gets to own it together. The other thing I’ve seen us do as well is really call out when it is across a site, so you know our sites can be anywhere from, say 150 or so people to, you know, 1,000 people and bigger. So, every once in a while you get something that is a bit viral and all the managers catch onto something, they all implement and do it the same, and it becomes the way of being for the whole site, and that’s where we’ve done some really specific recognition as well. You know if you can get something to go across the functions and all the groups within, you know, a certain area, that’s an even bigger deal than if it is one team kind of within, you know, a group of teams that may not be as engaged. So, I think, you know, we focused on both; it’s like make it small and meaningful and make it big and meaningful and just thanked and appreciated people for having done some of those things. [21:20]

David Zinger: Yeah, I often think with capacity that small is the new significant, but we’ve got to ensure that that small is attached to the significant or the big goal. [21:29]

Jennifer Schulte: Exactly. [21:31]

David Zinger: Thank you so much for taking your time; I know you’re very busy and you’re at another plant site and doing all kinds of work there, but what you demonstrated with me even in the 20 minutes that we had together was a real sense of engagement in this conversation and how much passion and how much you care about engagement with that, so thank you very much for that and spending time with us. [21:54]

Jennifer Schulte: Oh, thank you. Thank you for the invitation. Like I said, I’m always happy to… This is one of my areas of passion, I love to talk about it, and if I could help somebody else either learn or get through, you know, a hurdle that they’re dealing with I’m happy to do it. [22:07]

David Zinger: Yeah, and you’re on the network, so if someone wants to contact you further, maybe has a question or two they could contact you through that, although I don’t want to load you down with a bunch of questions. I would recommend if someone wants to have a better sense of what Jen was just talking about, a little more detail, the Employee Engagement Network Top 10’s, it’s on the cover of the network or on the homepage, so you don’t have to be a member even to just click on there and download it. So, thanks again for taking the time and being with us today. [22:37]

Jennifer Schulte: Thank you. [22:38]

David Zinger is a global employee engagement expert and founder of the 5400 member Employee Engagement Network. He applies to 10 block pyramid of employee engagement to help organizations and managers increase and improve employee engagement.

Employee Engagement Dialogue on Mattering with Angela Maiers and David Zinger

August 23, 2012 by David Zinger 2 Comments

Mattering: An employee engagement dialogue with Angela Maiers and David Zinger

Employee Engagement and Mattering from David Zinger on Vimeo.

David Zinger: Hi, my name is David Zinger, welcome to an employee engagement dialogue. It’s my privilege and honor to have Angela Maiers here, and we’re going to talk about mattering. Angela, I have a slide with some more formal background about you, but why don’t you say a few words about yourself? [00:18]

Angela Maiers: Well, I’m super excited to be here, and David, I’ve been a fan of yours for… I was trying to think of when we first connected, and is it six years? [00:30]

David Zinger: Yeah, it was probably through Rosa and JJL (Joyful Jubilant Learning). [00:33]

Angela Maiers: Yeah, it was that, and I had the privilege of writing with you on Joyful Jubilant Learning, and have been like a raving fan since, and to watch The Employee Engagement Network grow, and then to be able to bring a conversation back to this is really an honor and treat for me. So, I have been a really passionate educator for about 25 years and my background is linguistics and literacy from the perspective of culture, and the perspective of communities, so social media has never been about anything other than amazing communities and really watching how the conversation not just from a technology perspective, but from the way that we have blurred the lines between our offline conversations and our online, and how our communities have grown and been enriched by that. So, it’s just been the most beautiful evolution to be not only witness to, but be a part of. [01:28]

David Zinger: And Angela, you know, a person just asked to visit your website, and we’ll list it at the end, to realize how many things you’re engaged in, and this being an employee engagement network, what I’d like to ask you is what are you engaged in primarily right now or what engages you the most? [01:44]

Angela Maiers: Watching people learn. I think starting my career as a kindergarten and first grade teacher, that’s what drives you everyday is to actually watch an individual discover or, you know, what I call own their genius where it isn’t just that they’ve figured out a problem. They’ve actually figured out who they are in the process of solving that problem and I get to see that with people all over the web, because they’re not just figuring out, like how do I use Twitter or how do I sign-in to a name; they’re really discovering who they are and how they’re going to share their genius with the world, and so in that context it’s brought me into multiple kinds of engagement – I’ve been engaged in blogging. Since we first connected, I cannot believe I can say this, I’ve been blogging for five years, which is crazy, and then that evolution led to Twittering, and I’m not quite pinning yet, but I’m investigating it. But I’ve been really active in the evolution of those mediums. So, when Twitter was, you know, just what did you have for breakfast, to now is really sophisticated, pre-organized, in real-time connected conversations with communities from Twitter chats, to hangouts that develop, to actual projects that ignite and form from this incredible real-time medium. [03:10]

David Zinger: So, really a sense of learning, and social. I kind of want to take it… I don’t know if we want to use the term one step deeper. [03:20]

Angela Maiers: Yeah. [03:20]

David Zinger: I watched your TED Talk fromDes Moines, and the URL is at the bottom of the slide for people who are watching this, and you really got into mattering. First off, I’d like you to just maybe talk a little bit about the TED Talk, and then I’d really like to get into how people matter and how we could look at that within the workplace. [03:41]

Angela Maiers: The talk has been something that I have been talking about and teaching for 25 years, so it isn’t just about learning; it’s like I said, understanding from your perspective what you bring to the learning and how you bring that every single time, and people don’t try new things, and they don’t want to innovate, not because they’re scared of the technology – they’re scared that they won’t be enough if they try it, that it won’t be good enough, that somebody will say that that wasn’t, you know, that wasn’t right. We have been developed and grownup in a system that doesn’t recognize failure in a way that grows us; that failure’s a bad thing and everything is about mastery, and perfection, and so you start little by little every year holding back your genius because you just start learning how to play the game and not really how to engage in life. So, I think access to incredible people doing incredible things can be both inspiring and can be a little daunting, so it was kind of a surreal experience. I actually had a different talk planned and the night before my TED Talk I watched my top 10 favorite, and I was so overwhelmed at their genius I thought oh my god, I can’t do this, I don’t matter enough. I was doing the same thing I’m telling my learners not to do, that you know, to own your genius and to know that you’re enough, and I’m like oh, I can’t, who am I to be on this stage and to be in this amazing space, and then I said I cannot look at learners any size and say I expect you to take a chance, I expect you to know that you matter, and not live up to that, and that’s sort of evolved in a deeper understanding that mattering isn’t just about trying to feel important or trying to be liked by other people; it is a biological need, it’s not an ego thing, it’s a DNA thing, and you know. [05:40]

David Zinger: It really comes down to you going a bit beyond that and helping other people recognize they matter, and also… [05:47]

Angela Maiers: Absolutely, and that’s where it speaks to what you’re working on with the Employee Engagement Network; even a deeper level beyond engagement is empowerment, and the way that we empower others and ultimately empower ourselves is by taking mattering seriously. I’ve broke that into three steps. The first step, if you will, is the act of noticing, that the act of noticing doesn’t just make you a more aware, you know, more engaged person; it actually makes you more compassionate, it makes you more able to communicate, because you automatically become empathetic when you see, and really notice, and see people for who they are and not just, you know, what they’re doing, so… [06:33]

David Zinger: So, before you go to the next one, so if we look at that in the workplace, that’s such a vital skill if you’re a manger, leader, or supervisor is not just to have the skills, but to go even more fundamental or primary than that is to notice. [06:47]

Angela Maiers: Yeah, absolutely, and young kids do that, they live their life like wide awake, and there’s certain professions that demand that. Being a writer, you know this, that you have to be disciplined about noticing, and that it doesn’t mean that what you notice at that moment you’re going to take action on, but I’ve kept a writer’s notebook my whole life and it is where ideas incubate, and where thoughts sort of formulate, and it’s the act of noticing and taking note of what you notice that actually prepares you for the work of writing and absolutely for the work of teaching. So, noticing has been a part of my discipline’s life for a long, long time, and I think that in this time where everything is grabbing our attention, we have to become very, very vigilant and discipline about pausing, and noticing, and finding ways to take note of who and what we notice, and… [07:43]

David Zinger: Because you can’t engage if you don’t have the space to notice. [07:47]

Angela Maiers: Absolutely, and you know we talk about this in brands a lot is people want automatically what’s the engagement strategy, what’s the engagement strategy or what’s my social media strategy, when the very first act is the act of listening and noticing the patterns in how your customers behave, how your clients behave, how your leaders behave, and it’s in that sort of pattern-seeking that we find a way to engage meaningfully. [08:16]

David Zinger: So, part one is noticing and then there was two more parts. [08:21]

Angela Maiers: Yeah, and then the second part is validating – using really explicit language to bring the things that you notice to the forefront, by walking up to somebody and not just saying good job very generically, or you know, way to go team, or we did it this time, but actually leading with very, very specific language that elevates their current position by bringing their attention to something they did. So, I really like the way blank or what makes you so unique is your adaptability, every time I meet somebody that is really adaptable, this is what I need from you. So, it’s giving them validation, but not general validation; being very, very specific. One of my favorite books that has sort of shaped my teaching is a book called Choice Words by Peter Johnston and it’s an education book from the anthropological perspective is how language, the language we use mediates our choice words, and our language can elevate somebody or it can empower somebody, and it’s a really simple shift, like if I say that’s a great project, I like the way you did this, switching that and saying what made this great in your eyes, what did you notice you doing differently shifts it to making the learner or the leader own their own genius and put words to that, and it really is an art; language is an art and there’s a way that when we hear certain words from people they can inspire action or they can absolutely destroy you. [10:06]

David Zinger: So, we need to notice, we need to validate and be explicit, and part three? [10:12]

Angela Maiers: Yeah, and then the last step is understanding how to make people feel essential, which actually is a lot different than trying to engage them, because you fall sort of victim or possible victim to engagement or entertainment where you always have to one-up it the next time – well, we did this for the people this time, well that’s not enough, so we’ve got to one-up it. Where understanding that you’re an essential person to the organization or to the client or to another individual has more motivation than any other thing in earth, it’s a superpower. So, when somebody says to you oh, that was great, I think you’re important, I think you’re awesome, or they say I couldn’t have done it without you, you are essential, I couldn’t imagine going through this without you here. I need you is very different from I like you or I like working with you. People want at the core, it’s the ultimate act of mattering is to know that you are essential to someone else, to know you matter to somebody else makes you step up in a way that nothing from the outside can do. [11:25]

David Zinger: So, really we may see a next generation of employee engagement morph into employee essentialism and that, based on noticing, being explicit, and really letting people know how essential they are in our organizations and our workplaces. [11:39]

Angela Maiers: Absolutely, I mean the key words when you hear that are I need you or you were missed, I mean something like that that says it didn’t go the same because you weren’t here; you’re going to step up and you will do anything to be a part of that. When you find out how and why you are essential to the world and to your community, you’ll do anything. It’s why bloggers keep blogging; I mean the majority of bloggers I know are not professional bloggers, the majority of people that spend hours, and hours, and hours curating content. The things that you do everyday on the engagement network, David, aren’t because you get a pay raise every time you Tweet something or… You know that this is essential for other people to function, and you perform that, and you step up because it matters to people, what you’re doing matters, and that’s what people really want – they not only want to know that they matter, but they want to know that their actions matter, and that they were appreciated, and that they were needed, and that’s what puts us in a constant state of improvement. [12:50]

David Zinger: OK, Angela, so we have about four more minutes and there’s eight points on your You Matter Manifesto. We’ll go through them one, like each slide, there’s two on a slide. So, I guess really what we’re looking at is maybe a sentence or two of how you might see that affecting work and the workplace. So, the first two are you are enough and you have influence. [13:13]

Angela Maiers: Yeah, I think the first one’s really important; even if you didn’t hit all 10, that people don’t give 150%, not because they’re not able to or capable to, it’s because they don’t think based on some standard in their mind or in the world that it’s going to be enough, and so we stay reserved, we don’t think we’re significant enough or that our actions matter enough, so you hear words like oh, I’m just a, you know, an intern, oh I’m just a teacher, I’m just… That word “just” is poisonous, it’s poisonous, because the moment you put that in front, you actually validate out loud that you don’t think your contribution is enough, so that’s an important one. [13:58]

David Zinger: And then secondly is that many employees feel that they have no influence, and yet you’re saying here that we all have influence. [14:05]

Angela Maiers: Absolutely, we all, and for the first time in human history, our actions matter, and not huge actions, little actions matter, and people don’t take action because they think that the action has to be gigantic, especially if it’s a really complicated problem, they think it has to be a really complex and complicated action, and that’s what we’re proving with You Matter. The action of simply just sharing two words with somebody can immediately change everything. [14:35]

David Zinger: Yeah, small can be so significant and… [14:38]

Angela Maiers: Yeah, small is the new big. [14:40]

David Zinger: And I don’t want to draw a negative, but even today, the day we’re recording this there was a Greek athlete that was removed from the Olympic Games because of one Tweet, and it just shows you the power of 140 characters. [14:55]

Angela Maiers: Wow, exactly. This next slide on the manifesto is really important, it’s a combination. People misread the word genius; they think that genius is some DNA anomaly or that, you know, it’s something that you are gifted with in a small percentage. I love the way Seth Godin defines genius – an ability for an individual to solve a problem in a way that has not yet been addressed, or to bring a perspective that has not yet been shared, or to create something that impacts and matters to someone in the world. Every single one of us have done that at one time and you are a genius is not an engagement tactic or a self-esteem tactic; it is a call to action, it’s a reminder that you have a responsibility in the 21st century to contribute something that matters. [15:45]

David Zinger: OK, so after that there’s a gift that others need, which is really in workplace that’s our work and contributions, and we can be the change. [15:55]

Angela Maiers: That’s right and that’s that sort of essential piece, Seth Godin calls it lynchpin. So, there is something that you have – an idea, a perspective, a presence, a talent, some gift that you have that only you have that others need. Your job is to notice, to listen, to learn, and to find out what are the things that others are struggling with and be that need, fulfill that need. You don’t have to fulfill all that need, but fulfill part of that need and it’s a tremendous feeling. So many people lead with the gift, like I have this, I’m going to contribute it, but they don’t attach that to how is what I’m contributing helping or moving others forward? [16:42]

David Zinger: I like the top one on this next slide – your actions define your impact, because so often you see engagement as an attitude or an emotion, and it’s partially that, but it really does come down a lot to the action or the non-action. [16:56]

Angela Maiers: Absolutely, absolutely, and that really is the evolution of the web in the world is that before your presence, your title, your past, if you will, defined your influence. Today it’s what you do now, and what you continue to do, and what you do in real-time that is being recorded and being used to define your impact not just on the web, but in the world. The commodity or the, I guess the… We’ve got all this abundance, but we have very much a scarcity of people that are courageous enough to actually take action, and you cannot take action with full capacity, fearless, bold, audacious action if you don’t believe you matter, and it comes back full circle. [17:44]

David Zinger: So, that’s all part of the You Matter Manifesto, and this is one of the pages from one of your documents that kind of sums up, but I want to ensure that before we close people know where to find you, and if they’re looking for more, you have a couple of books. They can link directly to your TED Talk and it’s really based on your name, www.AngelaMaiers.com. Any final thoughts about engagement and mattering? [18:12]

Angela Maiers: I think that even when you think that this is too simple, because we’ve been told that it takes really complex things to change the world, I would invite all your members and all their communities to just test this out, you know, prove me wrong that these two words don’t change minds, don’t change moods, don’t change the world. There’s something really spectacular about saying them and hearing them that ignites this chain of actions, and my goal with the site, which isn’t developed yet, I’m working on… Right now it’s just a dream, but I’m working on trying to crowd source, you know, genius to build this site is almost like a hard quartering for mattering, so that the moment you hear those words and you’re inspired to take action, that there’s a seamless ability for you to do that, and the actions are really your choice, and that’s why I sort of re-branded it Choose to Matter, because hearing the words and saying the words, that’s the sort of wakeup, that’s the noticing, and then from that second on the rest it up to you, what you choose to do big or small can have an impact, and can matter. It’s about you making that choice, so I think the way to start is to make a choice to use those words more frequently with one another and see what happens. [19:35]

David Zinger: Angela, thank you for spending 20 minutes with us, and you certainly matter, you certainly are essential, and you really with those concepts of mattering and essentialism raise the bar in engagement, so thanks for spending some time with us. [19:50]

Angela Maiers: Oh my gosh, my pleasure, and my honor, and David, you matter as well, so thank you again. [19:55]

—–

David Zinger believes that engagement matters. You are invited to engage with him for a speech, workshop, education session or consulting by contacting him at david@davidzinger.com.

Employee Engagement and Anthropology: A Dialogue with Jasmine Gartner

April 5, 2012 by David Zinger Leave a Comment

An Engaging Dialogue on Anthropology and Employee Engagement

It was my pleasure to share a dialogue with Jasmine Gartner on employee engagement. Here are a few of the snippets that stand out in my mind:

dozens of drivers, which can be really confusing because if every employer has to start thinking about dozens of drivers they’ll never get their work done, let alone engage people. So, I think what anthropology does is say all right, OK, well what are the core values, what are the things that unite this culture?

You have to have a really good structure in place to uphold a big company

We’re sort of like the mediator, or you know I’ll come in and look at the different kinds of cultures and try and figure out first of all, why people aren’t getting along, you know, and then be able to point that out and help them see it from a different side.

Objectively, what could we say that will apply in every situation, and one of the things we said was culture. So, in other words, if what you say are your values, in other words in your mission statement or your vision statement, and what you do are consistent, then people will plug in to it.

What you’re looking for, again, is patterns of behavior that you can systematize, so even though engagement might look slightly different in every workplace – it will look different in many workplaces, there are some patterns that are the same everywhere.

My apologies for the low volume on Jasmine’s voice. I encourage you to read the transcript as you listen.

If the video does not open in this window, click here.

Employee Engagement Conversation Jasmine Gartner from David Zinger on Vimeo.

David Zinger: Hello, this is David Zinger, and we’re about to embark on a brief dialogue on engagement with Jasmine Gartner who’s a cultural anthropologist, or corporate anthropologist I should say. We’re going to spend about 15 minutes looking at her background. I became fascinated about her work as I came across a blog post she wrote on the topic. Jasmine, welcome to the dialogue. [00:32]

Jasmine Gartner: Thank you, hi. [00:33]

David Zinger: Could you tell us a little bit about your background, and anthropology and engagement, how do those two things fit together? [00:42]

Jasmine Gartner: OK, good question. My background is like you said, it’s in cultural anthropology. The way it started to come about was that I was in academia for a long time, but I was really interested in getting out there and actually taking ideas and making them practical, and so a lot of the ideas that I looked at in anthropology I then used when I started teaching at the Fashion Institute of Technology in New York where I taught cross-cultural studies for international business majors, and that meant that you really had to make ideas practical, because these were people in business who are going out there and trying to do well in the world and you couldn’t let them down. So, that was sort of where the seed started, and then through teaching as well I was always really interested in getting my students onboard, having them engage with the material, and really be interested in it, and that’s sort of where it stemmed from, because then in the workplace I know it was the same thing; it was really a question of how do you get people to fully engage with the work, with the people around them, and so on? So, that’s kind of where it came from. [01:52]

David Zinger: OK, so that’s the million dollar question or billion dollar question depending on who you talk to – how to get people engaged. Just, you know, before we launch on employees and corporations, what engages you most in your work? [02:07]

Jasmine Gartner: Two things; I would say it’s the subject matter, you know, absolutely if there’s really good meaty ideas and a lot to work through, that will engage me, but I’d say more importantly than that it’s people. You know at this point in my life all the people that I work with, because I have various partners, the relationships are the most important thing, it really is. I think it comes back to, I think it was Marcus Buckingham in First Break All the Rules stated people don’t leave their workplaces, they leave their bosses or the managers, and I would say that’s absolutely true with me; if I’m not working with somebody where not only do we get along, but we can make the work go further than either of us could by ourselves, then that’s what will make me stay. [02:53]

David Zinger: So, then the relationship, and as we’ll get to it in a few minutes, the culture; kind of background of your study is really also what engages you in your own work? [03:04]

Jasmine Gartner: Absolutely, yeah, that’s definitely true; it’s got to have a good culture. [03:09]

David Zinger: And I came across your work with this first blog post, maybe I saw it off a Twitter or somewhere – Employee Engagement – What’s Anthropology Got to do With It? And you got my attention with the question because you know psychologist race into this field, HR races into this field, organizational theorist’s race into this field, and then all of the sudden anthropology. [03:33]

Jasmine Gartner: Yeah, because a lot of people, I think it’s true, will say oh, like I said in my post, do you pick up dinosaurs? You know, but that’s not really what we do; we study culture, and I think if you look at the definition of culture, you know, which I think is the shared and learned values that groups have that then define their roles and the rules that they have, and their behaviors, it makes perfect sense in the workplace that that’s exactly what you’re looking for is that culture, and that if you’ve got a consistent, cohesive culture, people will be able to plug-in to it. If it’s not consistent, if it’s not cohesive, if they can sense hypocrisy in it, then they won’t plug in to it and people will disengage. [04:14]

David Zinger: OK. There was a theorist Count Korzybski in 1933 once said the map is not the territory, and so there’s many maps we can bring over, organizations, and engagement, and what are the things that anthropology offers on a map to look at the workplace; what things start to show up and what kind of things do we see, Jasmine? [04:36]

Jasmine Gartner: I think what you start to see is systems of behavior so that you can… You know a lot of the times if you look at what people say employee engagement is they will throw out, you know, dozens of drivers, which can be really confusing because if every employer has to start thinking about dozens of drivers they’ll never get their work done, let alone engage people. So, I think what anthropology does is say all right, OK, well what are the core values, what are the things that unite this culture? You know, in other words if you were to go into a workplace and they say, you know, openness is really important to us, and then you walk around and the data you’re gathering is oh, there’s lots of closed doors, people are kind of huddling, and acting secretive, then you say OK, you know what, the culture that you’re saying you have is completely different to what the real culture is, because that’s what we’re picking up by reading behaviors, and we’re looking for a consistency. So, it’s not just one person who’s doing it, but how the whole group behaves is what we’re looking for. [05:37]

David Zinger: So, you’re looking at that, and then in the blog post you have a little discussion – when two cultures come together in a banking industry and one group has a pool table in the room and the other signs her emails with her full names…[05:53]

Jasmine Gartner: Yeah. [05:53]

David Zinger: Can you just talk about that example, because it really stood out in my mind. [05:57]

Jasmine Gartner: Yeah, that’s a really interesting example. When I wrote my thesis for my PhD I looked at a sociologist called Ferdinand Tonnies who’s writing in the early 20th century, and he was looking at how groups change, and the smaller the group, or when you have a small group there’s completely different rules to when you have a big group; small groups are absolutely based on relationships, big groups are based on structure. You have to have a really good structure in place to uphold a big company, and so what happened there was you had this big American bank which had taken over this small British company, and the small British company was all about relationships, it really was, and in order to cement those relationships and keep them going there were things like a pool table, or you know, in their recreational room they had plants all over the place, they didn’t have cubicles, it was really easy for people to move around and engage each other. Whereas at the big American bank it was very much, you know, cubicles, and people didn’t talk to each other, and there was no entertainment, you know, you took your 20 minute lunch and that was it, or your lunch at your table, and so each group coming from their different cultures looked at the other one and judged them through their own lens. You know, so if you’re coming from a big bank which says if we don’t have this hierarchy in place then things won’t get done, then when you look at something that looks really ambiguous, you know, when are people doing their work if they’re playing pool, that sort of thing, then to them that just looks like chaos, and so they judge it and they think you’re not doing any work and you’re just, you know, playing around, and the small group as well; they looked at this big culture and thought when do you get a chance to talk to other people, and if you don’t know other people how do you know who you can rely on, how do you know who’s going to back you up? So, they just thought you’re too, you know, you’re arrogant, you’re informal, you’re not paying attention to what’s really happening, and so it was sort of when they were able to look at each other through a different lens that they had that aha moment where they said oh, actually what you’re doing makes perfect sense in your culture. [07:58]

David Zinger: So, that’s part of what you do with corporate anthropology; you’re not just looking at it and analyzing it, but you’re helping people make connections, or come together, engage, or create some understanding of how that culture may be different? [08:12]

Jasmine Gartner: Absolutely. We’re sort of like the mediator, or you know I’ll come in and look at the different kinds of cultures and try and figure out first of all, why people aren’t getting along, you know, and then be able to point that out and help them see it from a different side. But yeah, absolutely, it’s not just about analyzing it; it’s definitely about going and talking to people, again building the relationships and helping them build relationships. [08:36]

David Zinger: So, in the MacLeod Report, culture was really one of the drivers of engagement, and in this slide we have up on the screen right now we have cultural building blocks, and there’s three elements that come forward. First, if you’re looking at the slide, robust and clear. Can you just briefly talk about that? [08:55]

Jasmine Gartner: Yeah, so basically what happened with the MacLeod Report is that all the research that we did, you know, previous to that report coming out showed that, again, if you look at here in the UK; I’ll use that as an example because that’s what I’m familiar with. If you look at the Sunday Times it has a list, it’s the best companies to work for, it comes out once a year, and if you look at various things on the internet, articles and so on, like I said earlier, you’ll see all these drivers, you know, so that people will say oh, well you have to have time for your family, maybe it’s maternity leave, maybe it’s about parking, maybe it’s about, you know, just all of these things that are very individual. And what we thought instead was, you know, actually you have to take a step back and think it’s not all of those drivers – those are too individual, too subjective, too open to interpretation. Objectively, what could we say that will apply in every situation, and one of the things we said was culture. So, in other words, if what you say are your values, in other words in your mission statement or your vision statement, and what you do are consistent, then people will plug in to it. If they see a mismatch, like the example I gave before where you’re saying oh yeah, we’re absolutely open, or we put our people first, but your behaviors say something different, you’ll lose them. So, having a robust culture, in other words where there’s a 1:1 correlation between what you say and what you do has to be the first building block. [10:25]

David Zinger: One of the people, I know Mike Morrison, who used to be the dean of Toyota University, wrote a book called The Other Side of the Business Card, and one element of the book that’s always stuck with me is he said we need to rethink of our values as promises. You know, it seems to me like values are something you put on a wall, promises are something we keep, and it’s always stuck with me that unless we turn those values into promises, they’re just kind of statements on the wall. [10:49]

Jasmine Gartner: Absolutely. I think that’s a good way of putting it, definitely. [10:53]

David Zinger: So, the second building block, Jasmine? [10:56]

Jasmine Gartner: Yeah, so the second one is leadership, and what we thought there was OK, well what follows on from culture, you know, and in terms of leadership it can’t… Again, I think if you were to look around you could find hundreds of articles about what leadership is, and the truth is that it’s got to come out of your culture. So, again you have to build on what you have, and leadership has to come from that, and it has to be, again, consistent with your culture. So, even the example I gave before where you have a small group and a large group, leadership will be different in those two organizations because one is much more hierarchical, so you expect a lot more from leaders. The other one which is smaller, there’s not as much of a hierarchy; leadership becomes a much different kind of term. [11:44]

David Zinger: And as you were talking, I dropped in the final building block. Can you bring the package together? [11:52]

Jasmine Gartner: Yeah, so this is the how-to, if you will, you know it’s one thing to say there should be a 1:1 correlation between what you say and what you do. The million dollar question I think is well how do you do that, and it comes down to effective communication, in other words it’s got to be two-way, and if you want your employees to be onboard with what you’re doing, you also have to involve them in it, and so you have to ask them for, and I know this actually happens probably more here and in Canada than it does in places like the US to some degree, but where you really consult with your staff, you really bring them in on big decisions and little decisions, and listen to what they have to say. You might not necessarily end up taking it onboard, you know, if it doesn’t make sense with your strategy, but you absolutely want to have their voice in there, and so if the other side, you know, on one side you have leadership, and on the other side you’re going to have what the employees are saying, how they’re responding to that, and you have to pay attention to that as well to see if the promises that you’re making, if they’re perceived as being kept. [12:57]

David Zinger: So, engagement really is that connection. It kind of reminds me of a line from the field of positive deviancy that goes never do anything about me without me. [13:06]

Jasmine Gartner: Exactly, yeah, absolutely. I mean the other thing I would say as well is that I think there’s a perception sometimes that employee engagement is something that you do to your employees, you know, and in fact it should be something that you do with them. [13:20]

David Zinger: And with makes all the difference. [13:22]

Jasmine Gartner: It makes all the difference, it really does. [13:24]

David Zinger: So, we have a slightly different diagram of organizational culture. Anything you want to elaborate with this one? [13:32]

Jasmine Gartner: The reason I have this image is usually when we talk about culture in terms of anthropology, it’s unspoken, it’s below that waterline that you see there, and you know when you talk about culture like a national culture, we would say that it’s almost like language; you don’t remember learning your culture, it’s unspoken, it’s passive, and you almost do it without thinking. Whereas in an organization that is turned upside down and the values are on the top, and so it can be a quite precarious situation, because like I said, again if your values don’t match up with your behaviors and the rules that you put out there, people will see it straight away. [14:12]

David Zinger: Yeah. [14:13]

Jasmine Gartner: That’s why I (inaudible). [14:15]

David Zinger: And so anthropology plus engagement equals question mark. People seem to be into making equations out of things. So, if that’s the equation, what’s the answer? [14:28]

Jasmine Gartner: I’d say that it’s anthropology plus engagement is it brings a science to it; it’s going to become more systematic. So, maybe anthropology plus engagement leads to a, you know, a formula that everybody can follow that simplifies it. Maybe you’re looking for a one word answer, I’m not sure I can come up with one, but you’re looking to simplify engagement, or at least that’s what I’m trying to do is make it more accessible to people, as many people as possible. [14:54]

David Zinger: Simplify it, but also with data and a more scientific orientation as opposed to the biases and the things that we might be so prone to? [15:04]

Jasmine Gartner: Exactly. What you’re looking for, again, is patterns of behavior that you can systematize, so even though engagement might look slightly different in every workplace – it will look different in many workplaces, there are some patterns that are the same everywhere. [15:16]

David Zinger: So, I’m not sure we can do this but let’s give it a shot. So, you’re going to teach a manager to be an anthropologist in 30 seconds or so. If I walk into my organization and I had an anthropological viewpoint of what’s going on, what would I be looking for? [15:35]

Jasmine Gartner: I think what you would be looking for is behaviors, because you know you can’t see values. I think that’s what it comes down to; you really cannot see values, it’s there in people’s heads, they’re ideas, they’re, you know, and so you would be reading behaviors. I was just reading an article this morning about, it was a guy saying well, you know as a boss, as a manager you decide well I’m going go into a room and stay the day and go and make contact with people, I’m going to go and chat with them, and you all of the sudden walk through and realize people are laughing as you walk through, often they’re silent. So, it’s behaviors like that that you would want to be watching out for, and then reflects on your leadership, it reflects on the culture that you have there. If they’re still open with you, if they include you, I think that would be one thing that you would look for. So, you analyze behaviors to get at values, and that means in terms of your employees as well, you know, you want to know what they perceive the culture to be. [16:27]

David Zinger: OK, and where you make a difference in corporate anthropology is looking at not just analyzing, not just looking at it, but helping people get onboard and looking at the drivers of robust culture? [16:40]

Jasmine Gartner: Absolutely, I mean that’s the meat of what I do basically. I do a lot of training, I do a lot of work in teaching people how to communicate well, and a lot of that is about looking for those systems of behaviors, those patterns, and then trying to change your own behavior within that to communicate well or to help other people to do so. [17:02]

David Zinger: Well, Jasmine, it’s been just a very short period of time, but what a wonderful, quick snapshot on engagement, and offering us a different lens to look at the workplace. So, if anybody’s watching this, listening to this, I really do encourage them to go to your website and to look at your blog and the areas that you work in. What’s your current work right now; what are you focused on right now these days? [17:27]

Jasmine Gartner: Right now I do a lot of training around information and consultation, which I think you have in Canada as well don’t you? Where you basically go into the workplace and work with staff forums to build up a culture that’s open, that’s robust, where there’s open communication between staff and management about change. [17:47]

David Zinger: Yeah, that seems so vital and so important. I want to really thank you for joining us for the 15-20 minutes that we’ve been together. This is running in conjunction with the Employee Engagement Network, and the recording will be posted up on the network, it will probably be also at my site. Jasmine, you may decide to post the recording at your site, but a number of ways people can have access to the information, and to offer us another lens to look at this vital field of employee engagement and look at how we can make a difference by focusing on the culture. Thank you so much for joining us today. [18:23]

Jasmine Gartner: Thank you for having me. [18:25]

David Zinger: Oh, it’s just been wonderful. Thanks so much.

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Jasmine Gartner. To learn more about Jasmine’s work I encourage you to visit her site: www.jasminegartner.com.

David Zinger is devoted to helping organizations and individuals fully engage in work to build and sustain successful and meaningful results and relationships. Request his speeches, workshop, or consulting today on the pyramid of employee engagement to engage all of your employees. Mr. Zinger founded and hosts the 4700+ member Employee Engagement Network. Contact David today at zingerdj@gmail.com.